Feedback on PoE 2: Fundamental confict in game designs

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auspexa#1404 が発言:

for example, it's much easier to get lightning penetration than fire penetration for a crossbow build,

All your comment makes absolutely no sense and you are complaining for things that doesnt even exist but for this one, I have to say something.

With a start as mercenary, you need 18 nodes points to reach 2 main lightning penetration : surging currents and flash storm.

With a start of mercenary you need ... 18 nodes points to reach 2 main fire penetration : burn away and smoke inhalation.


So stop complaining about things that doesnt even exist !!!

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rifraf-_-#9478 が発言:

It takes time to both add features to the endgame, let alone balance it. It's no secret when the game launched the endgame was in a pretty miserable state. They are building it as we speak. Balancing it will take time.

I have no idea where you see the game already moving towards PoE1. That's wishful thinking on your part more than anything.

Balancing is about tweaking numbers. Tweaking numbers isn't going to address the conflicts in the current design.

When I think of meaningful combat, I think my actions will change based on mob patterns, strengths and weaknesses. However, it appears when GGG thinks of meaningful combat, they mean pressing more buttons to clear the screen regardless of what mobs are doing. Like parry > disengage > exploding spear is just exploding spear with more steps. However that's what being touted as meaningful combat.

TBF if you think just pressing exploding spear is boring, exploding spear with more steps might be fun. You might enjoy the increased difficulty of execution. This is where I think POE2 is headed. Poe1 with more steps. Which may or may not be enjoyable to players

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Also it's ok for it to go from dark souls esque ordeal in campaign to one shooting mobs in endgame, a great progression actually, with power allowing you to bypass mechanics one after another, though still able to utilize if needed. Assuming that is the idea ofc, but I wouldn't mind it.

This.

The game has a lot of weaknesses, but the progression overall makes sense.
The reason why you have so much trouble with it is because your 2k life Huntress can't even utilize any combos on juiced t15s - she will be dead in one second. Until the endgame you're incentivized to take only damage nodes and maybe some evasion\block nodes, that's it. But those are EHP boosters, not max hit boosters.
So you end up being a glass cannon just because Jonathan wants to punish you with a big boss slam which you coulnd't dodge properly.
But you realistically can't survive anything on maps. Inc. a.speed + extra damage with inc effect of modifers and you're toast, nothing you can do defensively if you're playing melee Huntress, for instance. I'm certain that if you have the increased damage modifier on t15 map with icreased effect of modifiers taken in your atlas passive tree, you will be straight up oneshotted with a single volatile plant despite having reasonable post midgame defences.
Basically it is the GGG's intention to make the passive skill tree as bad as it is right now, just to punish you when needed.
BUT, as I said, the overall progression makes perfect sense. The only problem is that GGG decided to build the game in a way so they can control every aspect of it, but they realistically can't do it.

First off, super cool discussion- it is cool to read other perspectives on the game.

Just to give some context to where I am coming from: I have played ARPGs since the first Diablo, but admittedly I bounced off PoE1 hard, due to the wall of complexity I was met with. I normally enjoy complex games (I play a lot of Paradox titles), but I must say that PoE1 did a very poor job (imo) at introducing its systems to the player.

PoE2 has so far managed to do just that- and I have been playing it a lot since it came out in EA.

All of that being said- here are my thoughts on what you wrote on PoE2.

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The Core Conflict: Reactive Combat in a High-Paced ARPG

The primary issue, as I see it, stems from a design philosophy pushing for more "deliberate" and reactive combat, which feels at odds with the core identity of Path of Exile and the ARPG genre at large. Examples of these mechanics include:

* Active blocking and parrying.
* Ailments that only exist to make other ailments apply easier
* Mechanics that reward situational awareness, such as benefiting from HP loss, filling a stagger bar, standing still for periods, or capitalizing on brief "opportunity windows."
* Chaining abilities to build up combos for a powerful finishing move.
* Gameplay that requires reacting to specific statuses affecting enemies.

These are mechanics one would typically expect in games with a fundamentally different pacing and gameplay loop, such as No Rest for the Wicked, the Dark Souls series, or even Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

When it comes to the combat systems of PoE2 - I feel like a lot of what you are pointing out is only really the case for a couple of classes. Active blocking and parrying is only really a mechanic present in two of the currently 7 classes that are in the game.

As for the other mechanics- I feel like they are the natural evolution of what ARPGs have historically offered. In D1-2 you had access to many abilities, but could only cast a couple of them at any given time, due to the way the UI was made. Hence many builds in those games relied on one-two button gameplay to feel good.

And while PoE is very inspired by D2- I think it is also daring to do more- and I don't think the two ways are as mutually exclusive as you make it sound like.

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Im a Speed King (see me fly)

Path of Exile has always been a game centered around grinding and clear speed. This isn't just a player preference; it's reinforced by game systems: we have races with rewards and competitive ladders. The core gameplay loop involves annihilating hundreds of monsters, not slowly and tactically fighting our way through mobs in one-on-one combat. Better clear speed directly translates to more experience, more loot, and faster progression through endgame systems.

Consider current endgame mapping: mechanics like Breach and Delirium inherently demand speed. You are often overwhelmed by a screen full of monsters, projectiles, and ground effects. In such scenarios, you need to be constantly moving, watching out for dangerous abilities, and kiting effectively. The best defense has consistently been proactive movement and manual avoidance. Does anyone truly want to stand still in a Simulacrum wave, waiting to get hit so they can parry an attack?

The reason I, and likely many others, would be reluctant to engage with sophisticated combos, active blocking, stagger bar management, or meticulously tracking enemy statuses is simple: there is no time for that. My focus is necessarily on survival and efficient killing while dodging myriad deadly effects. This is precisely why I, as a theorycrafter, gravitate towards builds that are as automated and efficient as possible. While I genuinely enjoy tactical combat in other games, I don't believe there's sufficient room for it in PoE's high-octane endgame, outside of perhaps some specific boss fights.

Furthermore, if we were meant to engage monsters slowly and tactically, how long would a single map completion take, given the sheer size of these areas and the density of monsters required for meaningful progression?

Slow, tactical combat might fit the pacing of Act 1 and encounters with story bosses. Beyond that, I'm afraid it feels misplaced.

While I agree with most of your entire analysis here, I don't think that tactical gameplay is impossible to do here- it's just a matter of proper balancing. Yes, you gravitate towards one-button builds because it is inherintly more effective currently, but what if the upsides weren't so clear for 1-button builds? Right now there is no reason to pick a bleed build over say LS on Huntress, because you just simply can't do it more efficiently on that class. So of course you are bothered by the alternative- it is objectively the least effective way to play. But you can also turn it on its head- playing the LS build is also the least engaging way you could play the class - and personally I'd rather be engaged and have fun, than be effective. That is just as valid imo. They just need to make it more "worth the effort" to play like that because you are completely right, that most of the endgame mechanics encourage one style of playing- while the campaign itself offers something else.

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A Tale of Two Designs: Jekyll or Hyde?

Currently, PoE 2's design feels as if two separate development teams created two distinct games—one a true sequel to Path of Exile, the other a Dark Souls-inspired experience set in Wraeclast—and then attempted to merge them.

This fundamental dissonance, I believe, is the root cause of many of the current design concerns and much of the negative feedback from a segment of the player base.

This is my perspective, and (unlike some content creators) I don't pretend to be speaking for the entire community. I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Do you want a PoE sequel that iterates on its established strengths, a "Dark Souls PoE," or do you find this current Metamorph approach compelling?

I don't think this is far from the truth - if the devs are to be believed they decided around 6 months before launch to focus on making endgame for the EA - so obviously it feels tagged on. It is pretty clear that they have taken most of the inspiration of endgame from PoE1- and that is perhaps why it feels so disjointed currently. Add to that- that the new class they added is intended around tactical combo play- yet most of the substantial gameplay changes this League is made to the endgame (nexuses etc)- so people are kinda "forced" this time to rush to endgame this time around if they want to experience "new" content. Adding only wisps to the campaign to spice it up was not enough to make us all reroll from the beginning I feel like - except if they expected us all to roll Huntress. So obviously a majority of people roll Huntress and thus are forced into this tactical combo playstyle that they are neither used to nor necessarily interested in playing with by the sound of it.

Personally I like that the classes are so different and have a very individual feeling playstyle around them. I expect that once Templar gets added there will be plenty of 0-button build potential as well (like Righteous Fire from PoE1).

TLDR: I personally think there is room for both playstyles in PoE2 as long as they balance each option so that each feels rewarding in its own way. :)

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rifraf-_-#9478 が発言:

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iHiems#0168 が発言:

The endgame is still in a very miserable state. Just by having breach and delirium the game is already forcing it to be a poe1. They're not mechanics compatible with the idea of a slower gameplay, they're mechanics that force you to one shot everything on screen as fast as possible. Ritual isn't that different either given that defense is so bad in a claustrophobic space where things keep trying to hit you, it's much easier to just one shot everything and be done with it before things can one shot you

It feels like almost everything in the endgame was just thrown there without much thought, or at the very least nothing in the endgame conforms with the idea that was passed on the interviews for poe2

That's fair criticism and good feedback. The endgame does feel like it was thrown together without much thought. Just because it worked in the original it doesn't mean it can work for the sequel. GGG should've known better.

Idk what's the way forward for the endgame in PoE2 but that's not it.

Precisely. The idea was probably something along the lines of "people liked delirium in poe1, so let's just throw it there".

What you get in poe2, however, is a complete different beast for way too many reasons.

I don't know what's the way forward either, but taking a look at wisps which we got recently, I have to doubt if even GGG knows the way forward honestly. Not that the idea behind the mechanic is bad per se, but right now it also feels very out of place.

Imo 0.2 didn't do much to change the game as a whole, and based on the backlash that it received, we might not get too many core changes in 0.3 either. That would sadly make the game end up forever being in this state of trying to please everyone without really pushing for a true "side"

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Legoury#0138 が発言:

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auspexa#1404 が発言:

for example, it's much easier to get lightning penetration than fire penetration for a crossbow build,

All your comment makes absolutely no sense and you are complaining for things that doesnt even exist but for this one, I have to say something.

With a start as mercenary, you need 18 nodes points to reach 2 main lightning penetration : surging currents and flash storm.

With a start of mercenary you need ... 18 nodes points to reach 2 main fire penetration : burn away and smoke inhalation.


So stop complaining about things that doesnt even exist !!!

you're so stupid I don't even know where to begin

the fire ones are in places you normally wouldn't go on typical xbow builds

the lightning ones are in places you're already travelling by on typical xbow builds

I don't know how to make this simpler

relentless vindicator is also 19 points away, but literally nobody takes that on crossbow builds because it's too far away from the clusters you want, get it maybe?

it's not even only that, the jewel mods add another layer to it, but I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about

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iHiems#0168 が発言:

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rifraf-_-#9478 が発言:

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iHiems#0168 が発言:

The endgame is still in a very miserable state. Just by having breach and delirium the game is already forcing it to be a poe1. They're not mechanics compatible with the idea of a slower gameplay, they're mechanics that force you to one shot everything on screen as fast as possible. Ritual isn't that different either given that defense is so bad in a claustrophobic space where things keep trying to hit you, it's much easier to just one shot everything and be done with it before things can one shot you

It feels like almost everything in the endgame was just thrown there without much thought, or at the very least nothing in the endgame conforms with the idea that was passed on the interviews for poe2

That's fair criticism and good feedback. The endgame does feel like it was thrown together without much thought. Just because it worked in the original it doesn't mean it can work for the sequel. GGG should've known better.

Idk what's the way forward for the endgame in PoE2 but that's not it.

Precisely. The idea was probably something along the lines of "people liked delirium in poe1, so let's just throw it there".

What you get in poe2, however, is a complete different beast for way too many reasons.

I don't know what's the way forward either, but taking a look at wisps which we got recently, I have to doubt if even GGG knows the way forward honestly. Not that the idea behind the mechanic is bad per se, but right now it also feels very out of place.

Imo 0.2 didn't do much to change the game as a whole, and based on the backlash that it received, we might not get too many core changes in 0.3 either. That would sadly make the game end up forever being in this state of trying to please everyone without really pushing for a true "side"

I think you're spot on here.

As a first-pass for the endgame I think it made sense for them to try bringing endgame systems directly from PoE1. But like you said PoE2 is a different beast for way too many reasons. That's so true and insightful. I truly hope GGG is able to identify what you're saying here and execute accordingly.

They need to either try heavily adapting endgame systems from PoE1 or be bold and creative and try completely new systems tailored for PoE2. Either way, it's not an easy road ahead. They also have to communicate their plans and intentions to the community. I think it's pretty telling they're not sure themselves what's the right way forward for the endgame because they haven't really openly addressed their vision on it.

On the bright side, I do think the people on top in GGG are very talented and personally I trust they will try to do what's best for the game. I just hope they'll act as quickly as possible. At the very least by communicating their direction and plans.

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rifraf-_-#9478 が発言:

On the bright side, I do think the people on top in GGG are very talented and personally I trust they will try to do what's best for the game. I just hope they'll act as quickly as possible. At the very least by communicating their direction and plans.

Yea, true. I also think they're very talented. Jonathan for example, as much as people like to meme about him, I trust the man. He might not always be right based on people's personal opinions and tastes, but I feel he's very passionate about the game and want it to improve

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When it comes to the combat systems of PoE2 - I feel like a lot of what you are pointing out is only really the case for a couple of classes. Active blocking and parrying is only really a mechanic present in two of the currently 7 classes that are in the game.

Nah... active blocking only exists for magma Shield build.

AB is one of the mechanic you drop as soon as something takes it over.
Most cases: resonate shield.
Whats the point to try to time the enemies attack, when you can cause more damage and STILL block enemy attacks with Resonate Shield?

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grynnder#7112 が発言:

nothing you can do defensively if you're playing melee Huntress, for instance.

Im playing melee huntress (thunderous leap + primal instincts) doing T15 maps in SSF. I "just" have 70% eva, 12% armor, 65% block, 2600hp and 400 ES with all my rez at 75%. And yeah, I dont "one shot" everything and its possible to do it !!!

So again, its not because you just see streamers that play 20h a day, that just speedrun the game in order to be the 1rst with OP build and then, having more viewers ; everybody is playing the same way !!!