Energy is the best defence by far

But you gotta work on a recharge rate method whislt committing into ES. That's whats supposed to balance it out. Heroic Tragedy allows stacking to go into a bit too far tbh.

Dont nerf it. Better to just buff life to go up from 3k to 5k and we're good. Anything above will require extremely expensive soul cores etc, so that would be fine.

With slight Heroic Tragedy nerf for ES stacking and a buff to overall life gains i believe it would be fine.

PS. Highest ES stackers play some low investment builds like Spark CoC, Minions or Whirling Slash Incineration - that's also a factor. Increase of investment necessary for such gimmicky builds to work, would also reduce overall possibility to invest into ES that much.

With all the above combined, I believe we could be on a direction to something decent.

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AintCare#6513 が発言:

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lol49#6377 が発言:

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AintCare#6513 が発言:

Obviously the only defensive layer that doesn't have diminishing returns will have an advantage in extreme cases, not sure why this is even debated.

Armour and evasion outperform ES with gear below 'near-perfect', and even longer if you wont abuse Energy Barrier cheese/exploit.

The main problem of this game is being balanced around extreme cases, so lets learn from poe1 and not do that maybe?

At no point in the game do other defences outshine ES. I would say with bad gear it is even worse. Getting to 5 or 6 thousand ES is no problem when you just do a campaign play through. Getting your health pool up to 3 thousand is a challange for a lot of builds even if you are equipped "near perfect".

To avoid getting one shot with a non ES build, you have to severly sacrifice dmg. A decent ES pool is smoething you can casually get on the side.

Situation in trade is already absurd. Saying 5-6k ES after campaign is achievable, is equivalent of saying that in d2 'you can get enigma in act1' because some guy gave you one that is 10% off perfect.

I can farm t15-16 maps and get 6 asc points with 3-4k ES, or EVA/ARM under 2k life. in fact just crossing 2.2k HP with 75% reses on my merc reduced the 1-shot sources from 5 to about 2 (with damage mods on maps). If majority can run that much ES and prob MUCH more dmg than I have, they are trivializing all gameplay this game offers. This is a major problem that will lead to balance changes and result in PoE1 current state with enough time. This is exactly what happens when there is minimal friction for trading.

When i played through the campaign with my witch i didnt trade. I played chaos build (which needs almost no investment in the passive tree to do dmg).
The only thing i did was regularly gamble for items at Alva and if i got something good i upgraded it with orbs. I finished the campaign at lvl 64 with over 5000 ES, no trading needed. (And yes, sure, obviously you want some elemental resistances to go along with your ES).

Granted, this wanst my first play through. I only had the money and orbs to freely gamble for items because i played endgame with other characters before. But that doesnt change the fact that no item gambling in the world will get a non ES character anywhere clos to that kind of tankyness.

I mean there is a reason why there are many different ES builds that can tank almost anything without sacrificing speed or dmg. On the other hand there is almost no tanky build without ES.
There are some warriors that can get tanky. But you have to stack Block on top of Armor on top of Life. Those builds have to sacrafice so much dmg and speed that they are really not worth it because mapping takes ages.

My main complaint is really not about ES beeing too powerfull (allthough tanking arbiter one shot mechanics is a little too much i think). My main complaint is, that investing into Armor or Evasion Rating should be equally impactfull. Really doesnt matter to me if they buff Armor and Evasion or nerf ES or both. As long as they get rid of the huge imbalance between the three.

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LeFlesh#9979 が発言:

GGG has been treating Chaos Inoculation with Baby Gloves since launch. Bleed & Chaos were supposed to be ES's counter but they fudged the implementation, twice.

CI builds were meant to be forced into taking on another defensive layer (Mind Over Matter) if they want to survive vs. Bleed.

Your post is pure speculation so here's my pure speculation.

If they really wanted us to take MOM they wouldn't have slaughtered any way to stack mana and mana regen. MOM is nearly unusable now, there are some niche builds that can do it, but most builds cannot take MOM anymore because of the changes to Eldritch battery.

Its also pretty unreachable for most dex/int builds.

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DankWeebTrash#7386 が発言:

Your post is pure speculation so here's my pure speculation.

Not at all. You can watch their interviews and observe the devs declaring Bleed as an intended counter to ES and get themselves confused after realizing the (then current) implementation did nothing of the sort. My post claims an alternate, mandatory, defensive layer was the design intent for CI/ES-stacking. MOM is the most obvious but reading the thread will demonstrate there's alternatives. A "nearly unuseable" weakness is a fine compromise for the outright broken power granted by current Chaos Inoculation.

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LeFlesh#9979 が発言:

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DankWeebTrash#7386 が発言:

Your post is pure speculation so here's my pure speculation.

Not at all. You can watch their interviews and observe the devs declaring Bleed as an intended counter to ES and get themselves confused after realizing the (then current) implementation did nothing of the sort. My post claims an alternate, mandatory, defensive layer was the design intent for CI/ES-stacking. MOM is the most obvious but reading the thread will demonstrate there's alternatives. A "nearly unuseable" weakness is a fine compromise for the outright broken power granted by current Chaos Inoculation.

Fair. I don't watch their interviews really and they don't post their design philosophy anywhere.

As someone who used MOM last season over CI. And I'm using CI this season because I need some sort of damage mitigation.

I'd say it's not working as intended. I am in no way encouraged to use MOM at all. The levels of punishment applied to MOM make it absolutely unplayable and worthless. Even if CIs bleed protection was removed from the game I wouldn't run MOM I would accept death because MOM is literally that bad. Due to mana and mana regen scalability nerfs.

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lol49#6377 が発言:

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AintCare#6513 が発言:

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lol49#6377 が発言:

At no point in the game do other defences outshine ES. I would say with bad gear it is even worse. Getting to 5 or 6 thousand ES is no problem when you just do a campaign play through. Getting your health pool up to 3 thousand is a challange for a lot of builds even if you are equipped "near perfect".

To avoid getting one shot with a non ES build, you have to severly sacrifice dmg. A decent ES pool is smoething you can casually get on the side.

Situation in trade is already absurd. Saying 5-6k ES after campaign is achievable, is equivalent of saying that in d2 'you can get enigma in act1' because some guy gave you one that is 10% off perfect.

I can farm t15-16 maps and get 6 asc points with 3-4k ES, or EVA/ARM under 2k life. in fact just crossing 2.2k HP with 75% reses on my merc reduced the 1-shot sources from 5 to about 2 (with damage mods on maps). If majority can run that much ES and prob MUCH more dmg than I have, they are trivializing all gameplay this game offers. This is a major problem that will lead to balance changes and result in PoE1 current state with enough time. This is exactly what happens when there is minimal friction for trading.

When i played through the campaign with my witch i didnt trade. I played chaos build (which needs almost no investment in the passive tree to do dmg).
The only thing i did was regularly gamble for items at Alva and if i got something good i upgraded it with orbs. I finished the campaign at lvl 64 with over 5000 ES, no trading needed. (And yes, sure, obviously you want some elemental resistances to go along with your ES).

Granted, this wanst my first play through. I only had the money and orbs to freely gamble for items because i played endgame with other characters before. But that doesnt change the fact that no item gambling in the world will get a non ES character anywhere clos to that kind of tankyness.

I mean there is a reason why there are many different ES builds that can tank almost anything without sacrificing speed or dmg. On the other hand there is almost no tanky build without ES.
There are some warriors that can get tanky. But you have to stack Block on top of Armor on top of Life. Those builds have to sacrafice so much dmg and speed that they are really not worth it because mapping takes ages.

My main complaint is really not about ES beeing too powerfull (allthough tanking arbiter one shot mechanics is a little too much i think). My main complaint is, that investing into Armor or Evasion Rating should be equally impactfull. Really doesnt matter to me if they buff Armor and Evasion or nerf ES or both. As long as they get rid of the huge imbalance between the three.

so... it wasn't your league starter, and you playing a build that can dump all of its tree into a defense layer.

you initially claimed 'Getting to 5 or 6 thousand ES is no problem when you just do a campaign play through.' [which] 'you can casually get on the side'.

Your statements about EVA and ARM are also incorrect. I will restate my initial post:

Obviously the only defensive layer that doesn't have diminishing returns will have an advantage in extreme cases, not sure why this is even debated.

Armour and evasion outperform ES with gear below 'near-perfect', and even longer if you wont abuse Energy Barrier cheese/exploit.

The main problem of this game is being balanced around extreme cases, so lets learn from poe1 and not do that maybe?

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DankWeebTrash#7386 が発言:

I'd say it's not working as intended.

That's possible. I know that, at least for a while, the "+Recovery" Notables Soul Bloom/Arcane Blossom/Hale Heart were giving wacky math results. MoM might be included.

Are you seriously under the impression that, as a standalone defensive layer, armor or evasion is on par with — or even better than — stacking Energy Shield (ES) at any point in the game?

I'm leaving resistances out of this discussion because they’re a baseline for every build, regardless of how you choose to layer your defenses.

The reality is: simply stacking ES — and nothing else — can carry you through all content in the game with ease and minimal investment. The same absolutely cannot be said for any other single defensive layer.

Sure, the ideal setup is stacking ES plus additional layers of defense, but the point remains — no other defense can stand alone the way ES can. Even when heavily invested into, the combination of armor, evasion, and other layers still doesn’t offer the same raw survivability that a well-stacked ES build provides.

As for the so-called "downside" of ES — its recharge delay or recovery time — it’s practically irrelevant when you're sitting on 15k ES and can tank nearly every mechanic the game throws at you. On top of that, there are tons of passives and items that trivialize ES recovery through recharge rate, cooldown bypass, and leech. The same level of recovery and mitigation simply doesn’t exist for armor or evasion.

There is a good reason why 70%+ of players in the endgame (POE NINJA) are stacking ES as their main defensive layer, and it isn't because it's a playstyle preference.

I hope to see better balance upon release!

The whole point for balancing ES with the other defences is not to nerf ES but to give opportunity for chars that use Life to raise it between 5-8k values. Also Evation and Armour should have better mechanism of mitigation and avoidance.


Some Chars though should start with more Life as benefit, like Warrior and Mercenary for example and some other with more Mana or ES.

Whatever way Devs choose to fix the balance should do it in patch 0.3.0 and give no other delays. The game became abandonware.

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a09368652#0684 が発言:

The whole point for balancing ES with the other defences is not to nerf ES but to give opportunity for chars that use Life to raise it between 5-8k values. Also Evation and Armour should have better mechanism of mitigation and avoidance.


Some Chars though should start with more Life as benefit, like Warrior and Mercenary for example and some other with more Mana or ES.

Whatever way Devs choose to fix the balance should do it in patch 0.3.0 and give no other delays. The game became abandonware.

+1 Chars should have each special benefits from the beginning of their creation. It's rediculus all chars to start with same Mana,Life and defences.