"Your Build is Bad" Proves POE2 Missed the Mark. POE1 is Much Easier to Understand

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bewilder2#0356 が発言:

All of that could easily, easily fixed by not designing and tailoring the game around trade.

Play META build, reach maps at the very least on 4th day of league release. That is how you play the game, that is the correct way to play the game, because the game IS tailored and designed around that. None of either loot buff or nerf would happen if the game isn't designed around that.

Being slow = can't reach maps faster = can't acquire better quality or more quantity of loot = can't have purchasing power in the market = have fun in progressing your build in this state of game.

You absolutely nailed it.

In addition, I feel using the same items to "craft" as we do to trade is a problem.
I actually want to "craft" my own items. I want to use something I either found or made.
But, you can easily use every single orb in your inventory and never "craft" anything useful
Then, you have no trade power and after using all of your orbs, you've accomplished nothing.

I don't think that poe1 is that easier to understand. Poe1 has much more fan content explaining things and giving guidelines and a much more complete wiki.

Poe2 is also a complex game, with a lot of non-intuitive things that work differently than poe1, while it still lacks a lot of fan-made content.

Balance in poe2 is completelly broken obviously. Not everything is gonna work in this game, specially defensively. Poe1 balance is not that good, but it is far worse here.

This complexity and unbalance, together with the lack of guidelines from community, make this game really hard for new players to understand the game and learn which builds work well here.

That said, this game is easy for veteran players who know what they are doing.

Poe1 early game isn't easier to understand, it is just... easier. A literal decade of power creep is why your friends can be absolutely clueless and still beat the campaign. At some point they will hit a brick wall though, because contrary to what you're claiming, getting to maps hasn't taught them anything besides absolute basics and how to right click.

That is why having a somewhat challenging campaign can be actually helpful to new players, provided it is balanced correctly without unnatural spikes both in terms of monster/player power and drops.
We will see if they get there once all the acts are in.

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bewilder2#0356 が発言:

Being slow = can't reach maps faster = can't acquire better quality or more quantity of loot = can't have purchasing power in the market =

don't care about any of that
F R E S H is a mind-virus. This way of thinking is willfully entering a mental prison.

well you are saying that ggg balances game around trading and yet you cant trade up currency since start of the game.
trading isnt main issue: this game is basically miserable tug of war between crackhead adhd poe 1 tryharders that think " if you dont clear any map in a time within 10 seconds (basically poe 1 late game, nothing else is accepted) your build is crap" and devs that want make easier version of poe that accesable to wider audience , meanwhile somewhat challenging. also there is 3 rd side of that tug: jonathan exile with his vision of putting oil in water (dark souls in arpg) and squeezing them till they merge in meanwhile catoring to his NO NOOBS allowed!!! (basically like first group but much mo radical and hostile to any quality of life changes because that is for weaklings). this game is dumpster fire on its own , trading just basically shipments of trash so that fire wont go out on itself, well eventually it will be put out by fireman team (aka devs tryharders and "jonh the vision" will be forced to help the team that wanted accessable poe, because most of crowd left in confusion or anger and cause of that systems that do nothing and just needlessly burden the player (vendor stock and overall vendor uselesness,armor stacking debuffing move speed, noncensical skill tree where nothing is grouped up, slow movement speed and pointlessy large and empty story maps with not much poi points and barelly any elite mobs, constant nerfs of build that make them utterly garbage, like hitting boss with wet noodle for 15 minutes straight is just miserable and on on and on) they need to get their crap together till its not too late

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Rakie1337#5746 が発言:

I think the opposite, POE 1 is the more complicated game and the POE 2 noobs could never handle maven or sirus --


POE 2 is the baby game. It's tuned for children and the difficulty is even easier than POE 1 -- significantly easier.

The problem is that POE2 lies to you. It handholds you into builds that just dont function. In POE1 the information you get is correct.

Trade isnt the problem in this game. There is trade in POE1 and it doesnt prevent an impediment. Sure someone who trades will move faster than I will playing SSF. I dont care. If you care that someone gets to maps faster than you then I would suggest you need to play a compeditive game. This is not. Nor is POE1.

The problem is that in the desire to make the game "understandable" by newer players they made the game dishonest. You cant actually play Fangs of Frost through endgame. Pick virtually any POE1 skill and you can get to end game. This isnt power creep, its a well designed game. By the time you are taking out maps like the you tube videos you have been working on your build a long time and invested a lot of time into it. Why shouldnt you be allowed to take out a map at that point? Why does it bother people that some could take out the maps?

I dont play 1 shot meta builds in POE because they bore me. I dont trade because I like making my own builds. The different between POE1 and POE2 is my play style is POSSIBLE in POE1 and NOT POSSIBLE in POE2. Ergo, POE2 is a dishonest game that rewards ONLY meta builds.

Now I have one great way to prove this. Get a friend, offer them $20 if they will play POE and get to at least cruel. See how they like it as a brand new newbie. Dont help them dont give them anything. You will see that this game say "go away" to anyone EXCEPT the meta build.

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Kraythax#2592 が発言:

Trade isnt the problem in this game. There is trade in POE1 and it doesnt prevent an impediment. Sure someone who trades will move faster than I will playing SSF. I dont care. If you care that someone gets to maps faster than you then I would suggest you need to play a compeditive game. This is not. Nor is POE1.

Disagree that PoE is not competitive game. It is a competitive game, but the competitiveness is in economic environment.

I agree that trade is not the problem, BUT, designing and tailoring the game around trade is the problem especially when PoE 2 trying to create a new wheel, trying to be its own game, but still using its predecessor as foundation.

In discussing about Fang of Frost viability, I have 2 views about it ;

1) I agree with your take about why shouldn't we allowed to take a skill like that into maps, making it "endgame" viable, picking up pieces of puzzles and constructing a build in which the process itself can be considered a fun factor. After all, Path of Exile 1 allowing that kind of process and its quite rewarding.

2) I also agree with GGG / Jonathan idea of making certain skills are meant to be just utility, and simply can't scale it terms of becoming its own archetype.

But the problem is, GGG enforces the idea of not allowing certain skills to be scaled as straightforward and become its own archetype but still using PoE 1 game foundation of randomization in itemization and trade dependency in making PoE 2.

Just like what you said in your other posts about trying to make the skill to actually do something meaningful and be its own archetype, require investment in gears that seems to be not making sense. GGG refuse to implement a proper crafting system that will greatly help player's progression in playing their own archetype because they want everything to be harder / slower, they want "ground loot matters" not "loot matters" , they don't want players to easily get upgrades even incrementally just by simply playing the game, they still want the game to be balanced and tailored around trade.

They don't want us to have a system in which we actually able to plan and working slowly but surely to get that gear with specific modifiers that we need for our specific build. They want us to be dependent on trading, to depend on others in the spirit that they call "this item might be not useful for me but could be useful for other".

GGG doesn't want PoE 2 players to be able to get martial weapon with damage modifiers easily like in PoE 1 with vendor recipe, or movement speed boots, or certain ring bases for elemental resistances. Every league and patch that seems to be remove friction / scarcity in PoE 1 deemed as "failure".

It still just designed like PoE 1, and all of these failure of design can be traced back and stemmed from the game still being designed and tailored around trade.

Just like what you said about "Why does it bother people that some could take out the maps?"

I'd say, Why they can't implement somewhat deterministic method of gear progression ? PoE 1 have it, why can't PoE 2 have it ? The game want to be different than PoE 1 ? Then why, for the love of god, the game still have alot of systems that just simply the same like PoE 1 ?

Doesn't matter. New game good. Old game bad. New people will quit upon seeing the skill tree. Others won't come back after seeing the endgame.

The Economy and Trade are at the core of both PoE games.

Trade is only good for those that profit off of it.

Trade is okay only for those that can purchase from it.

Trade is bad for those who can't or won't do either.

Those who don't trade, either because they don't know how or don't want to, are the majority of PoE2's player base.

For those who won't trade, there are numerous walls blocking off the best of the endgame from being accessed.

Those who profit off trade defend the Economy and preach that it should be this way, an exclusive attainment that only the "best" can avail. This is such a microcosm of the real world, no?


Conclusion: The Economy and Trade are a problem for most. It may not be the biggest problems (to which I disagree because they are), but it IS a problem.

Personally, it's glaringly evident that the Economy and Trade are the biggest problems since it dictates everything in the game, whether people realize it or not. GGG leads say "items from the ground should matter." but they don't tell anyone that what you as a player in Standard needs to do are:

1. Earn currency as fast and as much as possible.

2. Immediately trade for as much power (offensive and defensive) and magic find on items as you can afford.

3. The more powerful the character becomes, the more you can ignore all that "meaningful" stuff from the ground. Just pick up currencies and actual rarities.

If this was not true, then why does everyone use loot filters?

4. Keep earning, keep selling, keep buying more power until the "point of breakthrough". You'll know you're there when you can reasonably run juiced Tier 15+ maps with 0 revives.

5. Once breakthrough is achieved, currencies and other precious items and materials drop frequently and in consistent volume.

6. With volume, you can actually start to craft good items. EVERYTHING is expensive and you need A LOT.

7. The game starts to steamroll and open up to you at this point. Even pinnacle content becomes trivial.

This is the ONLY true path to success; THE Path of the Exile. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to you.

There are no other paths in achieving character power within the length of a league and even in "Eternal" realms, players will have to play for thousands of hours to achieve even a modicum of success only the One True Path guarantees in the shortest amount of time.

With Trade being necessary in an inflationary Economy that has no controls whatsoever, much of the endgame quickly becomes out of reach for those that are not part of the "privileged" crowd. These 2 systems directly dictate rarity of drops and market valuation.

If a player cannot gear up their character, the game will put a full stop on their character's growth and no amount of player skill, not even a Souls-like elite player, can progress any further, not with all the bugs, cheap shots and punishment mechanics built into the game that are all out there to kill it haha.

TL;DR
Trading and the Economy ARE problems.